So, I've been thinking.... (RPS)

[allana]

So, I was talking with evaine last night and found myself wondering why few writers touch on happy relationships within Metallica RPS. Now, I know the guys do lend themselves very well to angst and destructive relationships--we have tons of interviews and comments--but at some point they must surely be happy?

I don't buy into the assumption that all of James's future happiness was destroyed the moment Cliff died on the bus, or the thought that he and Jason never had a pleasant moment between them. That's fanon speaking, in the same way as Kirk's assumed OCD and even Lars's supposed ineptitude with anything mechanical. (Yes, I know I just wrote a story that touched on the last, but I know it's fanon.)

So, why are 90% of the Metallica RPS stories out there dark, broody and dismal enough to be worthy of a Batman comic? Other fandoms manage to have a good variety of stories ranging from utter fluff, through beginnings of relationships, PWP, established relationships, heavy romance, BDSM, tons of kink, angst, and death-fic. due South is a good example of this, both FPS and RPS, as is the LOTR RPS fandom.

We're only using one side of the coin.

I can only really speak for myself here. I'm one of those dismal writers who likes delving into angst and dark emotions more than happiness and love. Which is odd, if I sit down and think about it as my own relationships are solid and happy, perhaps sickeningly happy by some standards. On the other hand, maybe that's why I tend towards gritty angst? Because I don't have any? (Not that I want any. :P)

I did, however, very much enjoy writing a happy James and Lars recently. (That story may have given me fits, but those were all technical rather than any concerns about how to write the characterisations.) I think I have less of a firm grasp on how to deal with a happy James and Jason, but at the same time, my brain assures me that they must have had at least a happy five minutes and exploring them could be a fun challenge and also provide a way for me to round out my vision of their characters.

Is there some basic belief in the fandom that m/m relationships have to be dark to work? Do we believe that their happy relationships are with their wives only? Can we only get them to a happy place if we work in an AU? Just throwing out wild theories here....

There's nothing wrong with dark and dismal--I've written lots and happily read even more--but on the other hand, neither is there anything wrong with love and happiness. There are two sides to the coin, and both can be equally as rewarding to work with. Heck, the coin blurs when you flip it, so you could even meld dark with light. I'm just wondering why we as writers don't do this more often.

Discuss!

Comments

[evaine.livejournal.com]

Is there some basic belief in the fandom that m/m relationships have to be dark to work? Do we believe that their happy relationships are with their wives only?

These are two of my thoughts - I don't BUY them mind you, in my own writing, I mean. But any of you that read my stuff know that.

I just find myself wondering if one of the criteria (is that the right way to say it?) of being an accepted and respected slash fanfic writer - at least in the 'Tallica fandom - is to write dark, violent, angst-ridden, tear out your hair (or someone else's for that matter), depths of violence and despair fiction. I mean... am I the exception to the rule? Am I the only one that believes that these guys actually have positive moments? That they actually DO love and care for one another? That it doesn't always have to be about beating, power plays, manipulation, being tied up, being abused, or being used?

Or do the authors think that these guys, including Cliff, Dave and Rob only have one emotional side to them? Isn't that doing them the same disservice as making them all gooishly romantic with hearts and flowers and satin sheets and girly behavior?

Ang's "Grease Monkeys" was a LOVELY treat for me, because it showed my two favorite boys not being defined by their darknesses. They were two men behaving as two men who care for each other do. And it was a hugely satisfying story, if I can judge by the reviews that were left for it. (And there should have been more - I'm just sayin'! *pimping for Ang here*)

I mean... I love the dark ones too - take a look at my faves list sometime. But I just find myself wishing that there were more positive, happy ones. And somehow... that makes me feel as if I'm a true slash author. And yeah, I know that's me and my problem, but still - it comes from somewhere, you know?

*sits back and hopes for some insight*

[silentinflames.livejournal.com]

A quick inventory of my stories show that they are rather balanced. Happy/angsty-unhappy is about 50/50. With some I can't even to say they are explicitly happy or unhappy, some are kind of angsty but have a placatory ending and then there are at least two where there's no (sexual/love) relationship involved whatsoever.

I enjoy writing and reading both. Of course, angsty-unhappy is heart-rending, evokes more intense feelings. That might be a reason for the superior number of angst-fic.

I don't really have a preference. What I don't like is any sort of sugary-sweet happily ever after (and I confess being guilty of writing this too, lol).

Writing happy J/J would certainly be an interesting challenge. :)

[screwthedaisies.livejournal.com]

Or do the authors think that these guys, including Cliff, Dave and Rob only have one emotional side to them?

Nope, it's just the side I prefer writing about.

[stonefinder.livejournal.com]

I don't do Metallica but this can be said about other fandoms as well.

I don't really do happy stories. I do crackhead stories and dark fics. I always suspect this is because of my state of mind for a good portion of my life. How can I write something that I haven't experience in so long that I've forgotten what it feels like? On top of this, it's easier to create tension and conflict in an angst piece then a happier tale. At least for me. I also admit that I like the challenge that some of them present. One fic was an attempt to describe dissociation, another was to see whether I could carry off plot twists, that kind of thing.

Honestly? I think a good portion of my writer's block comes from sheer embarrassment at it all. Not the fanfic per se, but the gravitation towards angst and drama. I want to be able to do a happy fic but whenever I try, it never seems to work out.

[feelforfaith.livejournal.com]

That's a very good question, and one I have been asking myself especially since I started reading lotrips.

I'm guilty of the dark, angsty stuff. Maybe guilty is not the right word, because I don't really feel guilty, but still, I have written more angst than fluffy happinesses. I'm not sure why that's the case. I suspect that fanon had some to do with it. Along with me just liking to explore the darker themes. Along with the fact that no matter which way you look at the J/J canon, there is much more angst there, compared to the potential for happiness. So statistically, there would be more angsty stories. I think. I haven't had coffee yet.

Having said all that I love reading the non-angsty, happy stuff. Maybe we need a Happy!Met challenge? :)

[glam-ang.livejournal.com]

Personal preference and all that.... *nods*

I think I'll probably always lean towards that side of things, but happy stuff--as long as I don't devolve into writing about fluffy bunnies and pretty rainbows--is fun, too :)

[screwthedaisies.livejournal.com]

When I get bit by the occasional "happy stuff" ("Hit the Lights", etc.) bunny, I enjoy writing it very much. I just don't get bit by those bunnies often. My brain stays happily busy knee-deep in violence and accusations and rough sex and resentment and self-loathing and etc., etc. As far as J/J goes, that's been the basic premise in my head for 15 years. It is, definitely, what I like.

And the rest of the world can write what they like.

[screwthedaisies.livejournal.com]

On top of this, it's easier to create tension and conflict in an angst piece then a happier tale.

This is a problem I definitely run into. If a "happy" story idea comes to me, it usually manages to come with tension and conflict intact, but if I sit down and think, "Okay, I want to write a story where X and X have or will have a decent relationship," I can't think up tension and conflict for it. Which, I suppose, simply means that for the most part I explore, over and over, the themes of control, power, self-hate, etc. For whatever reason.

Which, I think, is normal for an author. (Not the angst/power/whatever thing, but the returning to specific themes thing and the writing the same kinds of stories thing.)

[glam-ang.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I suppose it does apply to quite a lot of other rock RPS fandoms. Motley and GnR are springing to mind here. Oh, Nirvana, too. The last time I poked my nose into that fandom I came away feeling very dismal.

I agree that it's far easier to create conflict in an angsty piece, but it's not impossible in a happy story. Just harder. (Okay, much harder.) And I totally 'get' that some folks prefer to write dark stories... I suppose I was wondering if it had stopped being mainly personal preference and whether it was a 'trend'.

[glam-ang.livejournal.com]

I hope you don't think I'm getting at you? I'm just being curious about the fandom as a whole. (Of course, you can only answer as you, so really I'm just being very silly, aren't I?)

[stonefinder.livejournal.com]

With Nirvana, it's a given, isn't it? The whole grunge thing was about angst and Cobain's demise would guarantee that the fic would be dismal.

It could be a trend, though I don't think of myself of following trends when I write. It also could be that it reflects whats going on in the larger picture. Emo bands and goth shit are very popular, people seem to focus on bad news and misery, and there doesn't seem to be much point in trying to stay upbeat in the midst of all this. I wonder, if we lived in more optimistic times, if the literature would reflect that?

[screwthedaisies.livejournal.com]

Of course, you can only answer as you

There is that.

I keep refreshing the page to see if anyone else has said more. Even though I'm not going to slap myself on the head and go, "Of course! I should write--and seek out in my reading--more happy stuff," it's still an interesting topic.

Also: the reason I probably haven't been able to immerse myself in other rock band fandoms probably comes right back to this point. I mean, I love the Foo Fighters. There's so much slash potential there! But the storylines, they don't come to me. I can't write Apollo/Midnighter either...what on earth am I supposed to do with them?

[glam-ang.livejournal.com]

Even with all the angst and James's control freak behaviour, there's still a tiny possibility, right? Kink Nothing ultimately had a happy ending after some quality darkness and angst--although, I wonder how long it lasted?

I think fanon has a fair bit to do with it. Unless you've never, ever read a story in your chosen fandom, you're going to pick up bits and pieces of other people's characterisations while you're on the road towards solidifying your own view of the characters. I've had to revisit my thoughts about J/J after realising that some of my thoughts had come from fanon rather than canon.

A Happy!Met challenge would be fun :D Hope you've had coffee by now!

[glam-ang.livejournal.com]

I share your pain re: Apollo/Midnighter. We could do so much with them if a good plot hopped past. Alas, I fear Warren Ellis has all the good plots locked away in a cupboard.

[evaine.livejournal.com]

I guess I want to know why. 'Cause I would love to see a writer of your calibre try and tackle a serious, positive James/Jason. I mean... you obviously see them in some kind of relationship - is it ALWAYS about dark? Your James and Jay, I mean. Don't they ever have light moments between them? Like over morning coffee, or something? Or maybe.... *thinking hard here* Maybe you don't have them running their whole lives amok in your head the way my guys do in mine. *LOL* Maybe that's it...

And it's definitely NOT a condemnation, I just like getting a handle on where folks are coming from.

[glam-ang.livejournal.com]

It is interesting that it evokes more intense feeling in the reader, isn't it? You'd think that love and passion would evoke the same level, but I do notice that the feelings stirred up in me by a dark fic will linger longer than a happy fic.

Maybe angsty/dark stories are written, on some level (and by some people, to explore their own darkness and fears and--this will be really disjointed as I'm dragging this thought out--it's through their confrontation of emotions that we suddenly realise that we as readers share the same issue. I know I've had more than one small epiphany while reading a story.

I think my train of thought is thoroughly derailed now. Sorry :(

[screwthedaisies.livejournal.com]

I thought of more on this....

I had the best time writing "Live Wire" (all, what, three or four times I've written the damned thing now?) but it falls apart every time because there's nowhere for it to go. James and Jerry discover a mutal attraction and have sex, and more sex, and more sex, and they're so cute, and isn't it great for James not to have a one-sided, frustrating relationship like he had with Jason in "Fuse", and...argh! I've always complained that the fact that they get along so well keeps ruining my story. They have no obstacles to overcome unless I manufacture them (Jerry's using drugs, Jerry cheats, Jason nearly gets himself killed and James has to intervene, etc.), and then they feel manufactured.

I fear I will never figure out a way to save that story.

[evaine.livejournal.com]

What about outside tension? Is that not as um... satisfying for you as a writer to write about? I'm just curious. Really. And I'm not talking about whole big sagas here... but one-ofs. Snapshots, sorta.

[evaine.livejournal.com]

Would that mean I'd have to write dark and painful and stuff? *gulp*

[evaine.livejournal.com]

Maybe that's the resolution. James' realisation that he CAN have a good relationship.

I'm just sayin'....

*grin*

[glam-ang.livejournal.com]

No, we'd just tie one hand behind your back to make it a challenge for you!

[screwthedaisies.livejournal.com]

Don't they ever have light moments between them?

They do, and those moments sometimes make it into some of the stories. I don't have any interest in writing a story based around those kinds of moments. I just don't. That's the why. The why is; I'm not interested in spending the time living with the story in my head and I don't have the ensuing motivation to then fight to get it down on paper. There are a lot of things I'm not interested in writing (Metallica het, fantasy AUs, etc.), and this is one of them.

Maybe you don't have them running their whole lives amok in your head the way my guys do in mine.

For a while I'll live with one version or another of their lives, or one of their lives, running constantly in my head--or going back on itself to refine the story line, and refine it, and refine it. I have what's I refer to as The Jason Epic that I return to from time to time. It starts at age 17 and it hasn't ended yet. There are happy moments in it, certainly, but yeah, at the same time...there's not a whole lot of morning cups of coffee, unless the morning cup of coffee is important to the storyline, and usually, in my case, it's not.

[screwthedaisies.livejournal.com]

I don't often get ideas for outside tension, otherwise I'd probably write it. When I do get ideas--the bug story, for instance--I still enjoy the internal "romantic" tension, too, so James is attracted to Kirk and Jason's attracted to James and no one gets to be happy. It's what I've got in my brain.

In other words, you're saying, "Why don't you make roast duck for dinner?" and I'm telling you there's no duck in the fridge.

[bella-cheval.livejournal.com]

Hmm. You've made me think, you have!

I like the dark, angst-y stuff as well as the light, happy stuff. It's kind of hard for me personally to write really dark stuff, and if I ever delve into the sugar-sweet stuff, please beat me over the head.

Not sure why m/m relationships lend themselves so well to darkness and angst. Have to get back to you on that!

[screwthedaisies.livejournal.com]

I did that one with "Breathing Lessons", and it worked because throughout the story it was questionable whether they could a good relationship.

The relationship in "Live Wire" is good from early on. As a sequel to "Fuse", it's...there's something else it's gotta do. I just know not what.

[screwthedaisies.livejournal.com]

I think fanon has a fair bit to do with it.

Maybe for some people, but J and J have had issues in my head since well before I was introduced to other Metallica slash fiction/fans/characterizations. In fact, I had eleven years to solidify my J/J angst before I ran into anyone else's J/J angst. My characterizations have changed over the years as I've matured. If I'd written fanfic back when I started telling stories in my head about them, James would have done a lot of raping and Jason would have done a lot of post-rape comforting of James. (Unless someone else had kidnapped the both of them and forced them to perform sexual acts and such together, in which case the comfort would go both ways.)

I'm not saying that "because my characterizations came about totally separate from other people's ideas then they must be the true characterizations"! I'm just saying they're the ones I've always had, and I like them.

[glam-ang.livejournal.com]

Completely the opposite to my experience--I envy you for that. I only started to feel that I could fantasise about them (oh, um J/J) in my own head after stumbling over slash. Before then, stuff like that got censored or I'd mentally paste someone else's face over theirs. Yes, I am odd. Well established :P

I suspect your mind is much freer than mine.

Anyway, my initial characterisations were shaped by fanon before I went on to create something that rang true for me after I went through tons of interviews etc..

[evaine.livejournal.com]

*sniffs sadly* You're never gonna write me happy, just for a little bit, James and Jase, are you?

Seriously, I do understand, Heather. Honest to God. *smile* Like I said, I like to 'get' what's going on in folks' minds when they write. I find the creative process so very intriguing.

[screwthedaisies.livejournal.com]

I don't know about freer...just different. I'd been fantasizing in slash terms since I was fourteen, probably out of necessity. I mean, you start out thinking Matt Dillon is hot after you've watched The Outsiders. And Emilio Estevez. And C. Thomas Howell. You can have three separate "me-and-him" fantasies...or you can up the drama by having "them-fighting-over-me", and I do like fighing :). Push comes to shove and next thing you know they're rolling around on the floor together. (Emilio, of course, was a brute; Tommy got beat up a lot. Matt actually didn't show up in these things all that often. I guess I liked to save him for me. :) Andrew McCarthy showed up, and he wasn't much better than Tommy. Rob Lowe was a bully. Morten Harket was the biggest bully. You get enough bullies in a story line and you end up with all sorts of lovely alpha male fights, usually over the nonalpha males. Christopher Walken, Mickey Rourke, Charlie Sexton, the list of guys who showed up in this one storyline I had running all through my freshman year of high school is endless.... Even Michael Jackson got the stuffing beat out of him. :))

(And now, having confessed to that, I think I'll go hide under a load of work.)

[screwthedaisies.livejournal.com]

I still haven't finished Green, so there's hope (I don't know whether there's happy or not in it. There are some happy moments in it so far, though, aren't there?). And "Fuel"...Jason will be very happy, but I go back and forth on whether it'll be for the moment or for a while.

[evaine.livejournal.com]

I have come to the conclusion that I am truly an odd duck. I love both the dark and the light, so to speak. To paraphrase Ang, the feelings of a happy story will linger with me as long as the the feelings stirred up by an angry story.

And by happy, I do not mean fluffy flowers and roses, right, we're clear on that.

I have a tough time writing the really dark stuff, because, well... my mind doesn't work that way. Oh, I could write about it superficially, but get into their minds? Nope... I think I'm totally incapable. And part of it too is that I write mostly James/Lars and there just isn't that ... "I must crush you" feel to their relationship.

Now, as to whether or not my characters were formed by fanon as Ang was mentioning. You know... I find myself most often getting pissed at fanon 'cause some of it's so freakin' ridiculous. I think my characters came from, first of all, the interviews and performances and DVDs and stuff like that. And then... they became formed when I was writing hetfic. Their basic characters, I mean.

Anyway, this is a way interesting discussion. *grinning* I wish we were all seated around a big table with our beverages of choice as we talked.

[evaine.livejournal.com]

How about tart and spicy happily every after?

[hanks-lil-pit.livejournal.com]

I always comment without reading the already established comments, because inevitably I won't comment if I read the others because I will figure it's all been said. *pants*

Anyway, my first knee jerk response is that it's hard to find...or rather insert...conflict in happiness. Or, at least it is for me. In fact, I should write a dozen happy fics a week seeing as how I am completely incapable of dreaming up conflict. *cough* Indeed.

Additionally, I think some writers might have a fear of tackling a completely happy done fic for fear of it being construed as...what the fuck do we call it?...out of character.

I think it's rather a shame that Metallica always has to be mad/angry/etc. I know there were plenty of good times intertwined with the rough spots throughout their 20+ years. There has to be, life doesn't work on just one emotion.

Hmmm. I'm not adding anything am I? *laughs*

Hank
~setting about to contemplate a happy fic...or at least one that is devoid of angry/angst, but possibly not sadness~
~"slice of life"...does that translate well to fiction, like it does to movies?~

[hanks-lil-pit.livejournal.com]

*laughs silently*

MJ? Michael! Forrizzle.

Learn something new everyday.

Hank

[screwthedaisies.livejournal.com]

I find myself most often getting pissed at fanon 'cause some of it's so freakin' ridiculous.

God, I hate fanon. I hate it here, I hate it in House, I hate it in Pirates of the Caribbean...I hate it everywhere!

I think my characters came from, first of all, the interviews and performances and DVDs and stuff like that.

Mine originally came mainly from posters on a friend's wall. I'd hang out in his room (this was back in the Air Force, in Okinawa) for hours every night after work, and if there wasn't anything to say we'd just listen to music, and I'd stare at all the posters on his walls. My eyes would always be drawn to the Metallica ones, particularly to James. Then I'd need someone to pair him off with, and for whatever reason that became Jason (when it wasn't Christopher Walken, who, in the little stories in my head makes my James look nice....).

[screwthedaisies.livejournal.com]

(I think it was a combination of "I'm running out of male celebs" and "He's such a freak--what would happen if I stuck him in my world?")

[hanks-lil-pit.livejournal.com]

Brokeback Mountain vs. Mambo Italiano

Evoking intense feelings from the reader...

I think of it this way. Readers have to care, truly care, in order to have emotion. The reader has to have an emotional investment in the character, like in your average soap opera or nighttime drama or movie. You invest yourself in the character and then you, over time, want what they want.

In this sense, you could start out angsty or wanting or whatever, and write it into a happy ending.

Fairytales, much? *laughs*

Hank

[glam-ang.livejournal.com]

I haven't seen Mambo Italiano yet--it's on my Blockbuster DVD list--however, I can guess at the feelings it would evoke. Incidentally, have you seen Trick?

You make a good point, though, Hank. Emotional investment in a solid character can take you anywhere....

[silentinflames.livejournal.com]

Tart and spicy, with that I can do! ;P

[silentinflames.livejournal.com]

It is true, since I am reading slash and angsty/violent slash at that, I have had one or two epiphanies myself as well. A disturbing experience at first, but then also a very liberating one. :D

There might be a possibility we haven't discussed yet (I think. I haven't read all responses): you can have both, a happy and functioning relationship and angst in the same story. Just expose one of the partners (or both) to an earth-shattering experience/event that will turn their world upside down, and then let them stick together, let them have a fight or two, let them go through despair and then raise from the ashes in the end, stronger than ever. I think that could work. :)

[hanks-lil-pit.livejournal.com]

I haven't seen Trick. I'm guessing I should.

Mambo is enjoyable. Very funny.

Hank

[evaine.livejournal.com]

I just adore you, you know that?

[hanks-lil-pit.livejournal.com]

Well, I do now. Anything can be proven through icon love!

Hank

[glam-ang.livejournal.com]

I loved Trick, despite the occasional cringe-worthy situation. It's a gay rom-com so you have all the inevitable embarrassing moments. However, it doesn't try to bash any sort of agenda on the viewer and I found it really sweet :)

I'm really looking forward to seeing Mambo when it eventually arrives. The synopsis was fun :) Blockbuster seem to be sending me one gay film per week at the moment so maybe I'll see it soon!

[glam-ang.livejournal.com]

All this talk of morning after coffee is giving me ideas for a story.

What on earth was I saying the other night about all my creativity having deserted me??

[evaine.livejournal.com]

Oh.. Can you SEE my cheeky grin?